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:Even renowned scholar Matl, an expert of Slavic studies, confirms it in his academic publication, despite some editors consider it unreliable just because they don't like what he states: {{tquote|"Auch die montenegrinischen Stämme der Piperi und Vasojevići sind ihrer Herkunft nach stark albanisch fundiert" [The Montenegrin tribes of the Piperi and Vasojevići are also strongly Albanian in their origins]}}.
:The current wording is the most cautious and balanced one supported by bibliography. On the contrary, the new wording you want to add: {{tquote|Some scholars, including Robert Elsie, have suggested that the Vasojevići may have assimilated various groups over time, including some Albanian-speaking populations.}} is [[WP:original research]] that so far is not supported by any source. – [[User:Βατο|Βατο]] ([[User talk:Βατο|talk]]) 11:21, 12 March 2025 (UTC)
== RfC: Neutrality & Accuracy of the Origins section ==
{{rfc|hist|policy}}
'''Statement''':
The neutrality and accuracy of the Origins section in the Vasojevići article have been under discussion.
The current version presents the statement that the Vasojevići tribe is {{tquote|'''likely of Albanian origin'''}} as a widely accepted scholarly consensus, but the sources cited do not establish this at all. Instead, they describe '''assimilation''', '''cultural shifts''', and '''Slavicisation''' making the existing wording potentially misleading under [[WP:NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|WP:V]].
To better reflect scholarly sources and avoid undue weight, I propose a revision that presents the different perspectives without asserting one as fact. Below are both versions:
'''Current Version:'''
Likely of [[Albanians|Albanian]] origin, the Vasojevići ([[Albanian language|Albanian:]] ''Vasaj'', also ''Vasoviqi''<ref name="Elsie">{{Cite book |last=Elsie |first=Robert |title=The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture |publisher=I.B. Tauris |year=2015 |isbn=978-1784534011 |location=London |pages=3 |language= |quote=The now Slavic-speaking Kuçi [Kuči] tribe of Montenegro, for instance, was originally Albanian-speaking. The same may be true, at least in part, of the Montenegrin Vasoviqi [Vasojevići] and Palabardhi [Bjelopavlići] tribes. On the other hand, many of the Albanian tribes took their origins from the north, i.e. from Montenegro and even from Herzegovina, and were no doubt originally Slavic-speaking.}}</ref> or ''Vasojeviqi''<ref>{{cite journal|last1= Duicu|first1= Ioana|title= Metal Adornments Of/With Balkan Influences, Components Of Women's Folk Costumes In Oltenia And Banat|publisher= “Dimitrie Cantemir” Christian University|journal= Cogito|year= 2015|url= http://cogito.ucdc.ro/cogito7.nr2.june.pdf#page=117|page= 126|access-date= 2022-06-21|archive-date= 2022-11-11|archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20221111111626/http://cogito.ucdc.ro/cogito7.nr2.june.pdf#page=117|url-status= live}}</ref>) underwent a process of gradual cultural integration into the neighboring Slavic population.<ref name="Elsie" /><ref>{{cite book|last= Miranda|first= Vickers |title= Between Serb and Albanian: A History of Kosovo|quote= In Kosovo, especially in its eastern part, most Albanians were gradually assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox faith by numerous methods, including the baptism of infants with Serbian names and the conducting of all religious ceremonies such as marriages in the Serbian language. In Montenegro entire tribes such as the Kuc, Bjellopavliq, Palabardha, Piprraj and Vasovic were assimilated; those who resisted assimilation retreated into the hills of what is now northern Albania.|publisher= Hurst & Company |year= 1998 |page=8}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Murati |first1=Qemal |date=2012 |title=Sprovë për një fjalor etimologjik onomastik Shqiptar |url=https://www.itsh.edu.mk/download/studime-albanologjike-6-pdf/ |journal=Studime Albanologjike |publisher=ITSH |volume=6 |page=19 |quote=Procesi i kalimit të elementit shqiptar në atë serb me rrugë të ndryshme asimilimi ka ndodhur te shumë fise të Malit të Zi, në Kuç etj., si p.sh. te Piperët, te Vasojeviçët etj. |access-date=2022-06-21 |archive-date=2022-05-22 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220522043201/https://www.itsh.edu.mk/download/studime-albanologjike-6-pdf/ |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|last=Matl|first=Josef|editor-last1=Rudolf|editor-first1=Vogel|title=Sprache und Dichtung als Schicksalsspiegel der südosteuropäischen Völker (in balkanologischer Sicht)|journal=Südosteuropa-Schriften|volume=6|pp=171–188|year=1964|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=ZMcbAAAAMAAJ}} p. 176: "Auch die montenegrinischen Stämme der Piperi und Vasojevići sind ihrer Herkunft nach stark albanisch fundiert ".</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Zojsi |first=Rrok |date=1977 |editor-last=Buda |editor-first=Aleks |title=Survivances de l'ordre du fis dans quelques micro-régions de l'Albanie |journal=La Conférence nationale des études ethnographiques (28-30 juin 1976) |pages=196–197 |quote=Pourtant, quelques groupes d'un fis, éloignés excessivement de leur base, entrèrent en rapports socio-économiques avec d'autres fis du nouvel emplacement et tombèrent sous leur influence, comme p. ex., des différents frères du fis de Keç Panta, le Hot et le Triesh restèrent albanais, cependant que les Vasojeviq et le Pipër se slavisèrent. Quoique ayant perdu la base économique commune et les traditions culturelles communes, ils n'en conservèrent pas moins l'idée d'une origine commune.}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Ulqini |first1=Kahreman |title=Tradition and history about the Albanian origin of some Montenegrin tribes |journal=Kultura Popullore |date=1983 |volume=03 |issue=1al |pages=121–128 |url=https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=958755 |access-date=2022-08-01 |archive-date=2022-07-09 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220709122647/https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=958755 |url-status=live }}</ref>
Sources cited: Elsie (2015), Vickers (1998), Murati (2012), Zojsi (1977), Ulqini (1983), Matl (1964)
'''Issues with this version:'''
* Elsie (2015) states this "'''may be true, at least in part,'''" indicating uncertainty not than a definitive conclusion.
* Vickers (1998) and Murati (2012) discuss '''assimilation''', not an inherent Albanian origin.
* Zojsi (1977) and Ulqini (1983) Focus on '''Slavicisation''', not an established ethnic origin.
The current wording gives [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] to one perspective, which violates [[WP:NPOV]].
'''Proposed Revision:'''
Some scholars, including [[Albanology|Albanologist]] [[Robert Elsie]], have suggested that the Vasojevići may have assimilated various groups over time, including some [[Albanian language|Albanian]]-speaking populations.{{sfn|Murati|2012|p=19}}{{sfn|Vickers|1998|p=8}} Elsie compares this possibility to neighbouring [[Tribes of Montenegro|Montenegrin tribes]], such as the [[Kuči (tribe)|Kuči]] and [[Bjelopavlići]], which may have also absorbed Albanian elements.{{sfn|Elsie|2015|p=3}} Some Albanian [[Ethnography|ethnographers]] have recorded [[oral tradition]]s suggesting that certain Albanian-speaking groups were [[Slavicised]] while retaining aspects of their original cultural identity.{{sfn|Ulqini|1983|pp=121–128}}{{sfn|Zojsi|1977|pp=196–197}}
This revision ensures neutrality and accuracy and follows [[WP:SYNTH]] and [[WP:NPOV]].
'''A full proposed revision''' with additional historical perspectives can be reviewed [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aeengath/sandbox here]
'''Question for RfC dscussion:'''
Which version best aligns with Wikipedia’s policies on neutrality (WP:NPOV) and verifiability (WP:V)? [[User:Aeengath|Aeengath]] ([[User talk:Aeengath|talk]]) 10:34, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
{{Reflist-talk}} [[User:Aeengath|Aeengath]] ([[User talk:Aeengath|talk]]) 10:34, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
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